Joong Do Kwan and any organisation I head does not extend rank to expand the organisation.

My BB students whom I've graded are underwritten by me fully to operate as independent instructors if they want.

My lineage traces back to Chung Do Kwan through GM Keith Yates, and GM Jhoon Rhee - yet, I doubt any of you have heard of my direct instructors.

In my opinion, the kyu dan system encourages proponents to pursue rank attainment, and is not totally compatible with the Tenets of Taekwondo.

The Menkyo system - in it's arbitrary licensing approach is immediately more 'real.' Anger the head of house, get excommunicated, or worse. Does it stop you learning? No. It's just a way of establishing pedigree.

While I don't talk too much about it, I myself hold both dan grades and a menkyo titling. I can converse intelligently enough about their relative worth - but there are many more things that are more important: community development, nurturing students, developing wellbeing in individuals, teaching good martial concepts, networking, gaining practical skill, and being a better individual over time.

How important is lineage? Lineage is not only what has passed - it is in the here and now. :-)

Colin

Sir, I think this is a beautiful response.

Of course the Menkyo system provides its own form of lineage separate from and in my opinion more important to the geup/dan system. Once a teacher has given you license to teach, it is then yours to grow and expand upon while still holding the "license" to teach as provided by a verifiable source. Our gym has always had "Letters of Appointment" for Instructors separate from rank. Unfortunately, even this is often misconstrued in its application...

Best wishes sir!

Michael - thank you for the reply. :-)

I looked through my response ... in some instances I sound a little terse. If I did, I do apologise.

I majored in Organisational Behaviour for my basic degree - and I do value a 'Theory X' belief which says people are essentially honest and good, and will respond to a well designed system of rewards and consequences.

It could be that the Menkyo system was the precursor, and superseded by the kyu/dan system because the kyu/dan system could be applied to a larger, more systematic, and organised group of members.

Both however, were used within an environment which understood issues of 'face' and 'face saving,' giri (obligation), ninjo (human emotion or compassion), and social classes.

In modern terms, I would think bereft of that cultural topography, we use documentation like Terms of Sale, or Agency Agreement Template outlining rights which include territory, decision making, or anything affecting branding ... to control the relationship and roles of individuals connected to us. While these documents have general templates for download off the internet - there are many areas within each document that need to be modified based on your business or your specific need.

The template from popular understanding would suggest practitioners are graded only by teachers within their lineage, need be 3rd dan or higher before they start teaching singly, need be active members of good standing within their organisation, that they would be able to promote up to 1 under but with the auspices of a panel of examiners, and collaborate with their seniors until sanctioned to start their own group when the time arose.

Where I think this often breaks is as practitioners travel, instructors die or grow old or 'go postal', politics disenfranchises groups to break away from their main organisation, if the instructor modifies curriculum to offer different training, or ... if the instructor starts unethical marketing of himself to attract more students.

In present tense, we have seen some attempt to address these situations. Does anyone have ideas of how this situation is addressed in the 20th/21st century?

Your answering this will tie in directly back to the original post. :-)

No need for apology my friend... I do not view these types of discussion as ones requiring overt vernacular of a friendly nature. Having worked the majority of my life in healthcare revenue management, numbers don't have feelings and while they can often be misconstrued, they will speak in a very direct manner.

I appreciate the method of your articulation, and am definitely one who understands the great variance possible in the path to promotion in martial arts, and perhaps I was not clear in my initial articulation. My question is not so much why do promotional validations not take a singular line to the top (I was quite blessed for most of my journey to have avoided many of the political pitfalls, however my father was not. Thus the reason many of his juniors surpassed him in rank, as he would not promote outside of his own direct lineage, and for a time this was simply not possible due to political strife in the Republic of Korea.

While I don't find it necessary to have one singular line of promotion, I often find that there appear to be massive breaks in continuity with many high ranking martial artists unable to clearly define where or by whom their promotions were granted. As an example, my Instructor is now passed away, and in much the same time frame, my Kwan of origin has again leaned back in the direction of the Kukki-style while I have invested the majority of my training in the Chang-Heon style. Perhaps, if I am ever to promote again, it may be under the banner of another kwan or association. All that to say, I would not accept promotion to the next degree from someone whom I have no knowledge of their own promotional authority.

I believe this was much the point of my original post... how and why is this such a common occurrence... But, this is probably more a question of personal psychology as opposed to one of martial principle.

I read somewhere that the promotion of practitioners for high dan grades - even through legitimate pathways often vary wildly between and sometimes even within organisations.

In my mind, the ascension to black belt, and for the first few dan grades usually incorporate physical testing. It is what happens beyond that as the practitioner gains in skill, age, injuries, political acumen, or contribution back to organisation - is where variance starts.

The kyu/dan system indoctrinates people into thinking the acquisition of a new rank relates to progress.

A few individuals like Stuart Anslow have chosen otherwise, using themselves as a lesson for others. I reckon Stuart could easily be graded to 7th dan legitimately now. I know younger practitioners who have travelled less along in the martial way ... who are already there. Yet, his choice for staying at 5th, while he excels at what he does, giving back to the community, and does it humbly from a position of immense credibility - makes it difficult for others to qualify their own grades against his achievement.

As you say, there are many who seek a fast track, are are not able to carry the ranks they display, or accept online or less-than-credible promotions.

I believe it is a modern day, consumer-like expectation which thinks martial arts training is a service to be purchased.

And fortunately for those who know differently - this is a trapping which is readily identifiable. So, in fact, I would presume that not only would you not accept a promotion from someone whom does not have sufficient pedigree - you'd choose to avoid a person who is not ensuring the correct progression of people under their banner.

Honestly, for myself I will probably never promote beyond my current rank. My Instructor left the earth only on grade higher than my own, and while he encouraged me to progress, I have no urge to match his rank. He was not only my "Instructor" but was my own father as well so he is forever my senior. Much like you referenced the menkyo system versus mere kyu/dan grades....with his passing I have become the head of my house, separate from any rank or grade.

I am simply interested in how others journeys work and how these things are carried on in other circles.

I think you would honour your father by doing a grading. A grading has nothing to do with the numbers of degree. It’s about the preparation in front, the ceremony during the grading, the inspiration you give your students and the honors you give your instructors.

I would love to watch your performance in a grading. It would be a really emotional and special day.

My first three degrees of black belt, and all color belt grades before that were graded and awarded by 9th dan GM Kim, Hong Sik. Prior to coming to the US, GM Kim was part of Moo Duk Kwan under Sung Park, and while in Korea he was an instructor for the Korean National Police and the military. GM Kim knew and studied for a time under GM Choi, though I do not know if GM Choi awarded any of the ranks attained by GM Kim directly. GM Choi did attend a tournament hosted by our schools in Portland, Oregon before GM Kim made the decision to part ways with the ITF.

GM Kim became ill in 2018 and had to step down as the leader of the federation of schools he had built (over 100 schools at one point) and appointed my instructor to be one of the two men to take over, and as his last act he promoted my instructor, and the other man both from 8th dan to 9th dan so that our schools would be headed by 9th dan GM's.

In January of 2020 I was awarded my 4th dan by my direct instructor, 9th dan GM Doug Tesdal.

Our schools covered 4 Pacific Northwestern states, plus we had for a time schools in Texas, Alaska, California, and Hawaii. Oregon, Washington, and Idaho have the majority of our schools, and there were active schools in Montana, and I believe one in Utah as well. GM Tesdal, and his partner GM David Knife (of Boise, Idaho) split overseeing things into three regions - GM Tesdal oversees the schools in Oregon, GM Knife has Idaho, Montana, and UT, and a 7th (maybe 8th by now, its been a year since I actively trained due to COVID + moving across the country and its been hard keeping up with all the goings-on) degree master oversees Washington's schools.

As for promotions - black belts of 4th dan or greater may promote their color belt students themselves. Black belts 1st thru 3rd dan must have their students graded by a 4th dan or higher (naturally most of those low level black belts are students of a 4th, 5th, or 6th dan themselves, who would oversee the color belt gradings). Black belt promotions are handled by one of the GM's, or in Washington, they'd be overseen by Master Josh Henkel out of Renton (Seattle area). 5th dan promotions and above must be done by one of the GM's so students would travel to Portland or Boise for those gradings.

Just a week ago here in Texas I was offered a job as a paid instructor with a different organization, that offers low cost classes for children with after school programs. They have their own belt system. Color belt promotions fall to the local instructors (like me) - they have 8 solid belt colors, and 'step belts' for a lack of a better term, that students may earn in between solid colors. Those that train long enough to earn a black belt would be tested by a higher ranked black belt or a panel of black belt instructors. One thing I like with this new organization is that they run the program in concurrence with the public school semesters, and belt gradings are done only once per semester, so its not something that is done every month. An exceptionally skilled student would still take about 4 years to earn that junior black belt, minimum. Possibly longer, as I'm not sure yet if there are summer terms or if there is a summer break from "karate" classes